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About raid loot...

Post  Cataclysmic on Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:43 am

ok so theres been alot of QQ about the ZA shield recently so i thought i should share my thought about how i think looting should be handled when we raid. IMO we cant be picky about who we take to raids anymore because of the amount of players on horde side, so, say we take someone with rep / heroics gear along to a raid, and someone of the same class who has good raid epics goes along and an item drops usable by both characters, let the one who needs it most get the drop. i mean why let the one who already has a good raid epic get a new one and vendor / de the old one when it could be more beneficial to the entire guild if another guy who was using a rep item or some shit rather get it now and do his thing.

I mean lets think about what a guild is supposed to be, a group of friends helping each other get get gear to be able to do more things and have more fun, but if everyone is gna be more greedy and believe they deserve the drops more than others there will always be politics and shit and there will always be QQing..

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Re: About raid loot...

Post  Cataclysmic on Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:50 am

kinda posted this in the wrong place.. apologies for that..

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Re: About raid loot...

Post  Shaerty on Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:57 am

Well, what you're talking about, is what Oath used to do. When they downed a boss, the raid leaders would tell those interested to roll. Then they would look at the gear and decide who needed the drop the most. I think it was a good system. But ofcourse there will always be ppl that whine and what not. Also, to change the system we're now using, which is the highest roll gets it, unless he already has something better, would be a little drastic and would maybe turn ppl away from raiding.

IMO, stop QQ'ing when you don't get a piece of gear, you've wanted for a very long time. For those that are going: "You don't know how long i've been waiting for this" i give this reply: "Yes I do"

What you said, can't be more right. The horde doesn't have a lot of players, so it's better to have everyone geared, than a select few. Because when those select few aren't online, we can't do jack.

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Re: About raid loot...

Post  Shaerty on Fri Aug 13, 2010 10:08 am

Oh and the Oath system kinda fails, when you have ppl like Manslayer changing their gear just before they roll, so they can get the drop... That's why he was kicked from SSC last time btw.

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Re: About raid loot...

Post  Cataclysmic on Fri Aug 13, 2010 1:16 pm

I agree in that we shouldnt change the loot system we using with the highest rolling winning, i find it the best way, simple and effective, but i would just like to see people more conciderate about the gear some other players have when loot drops and when other players can mean just as much to the guild.

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Re: About raid loot...

Post  Deadroe on Fri Aug 13, 2010 4:13 pm

I support sticking to a blunt roll-based approach, with an emergency option of vetoing the roll if there is a very GOOD reason for it (like the person already has better).

I DO NOT support giving items based on to whom the item is the biggest update. It could work for gruul and kara - gear that will be replaced soon, but when it comes to items that tend to be BiS or not easily replaceable, like SSC, hyjal and ZA drops, for example: giving a rare drop (suppose: a healer ring that drops off Vashj), to a starting healer who came in greens/blues (ofc it's a bigger upgrade to him, but the other guy doesn't even have ANY other options for upgrading his') as opposed to someone who has been raiding for years and never got it, would be unfair.

It is especially true for power-gearing alts (aka. taking someone in lvl65 greens to raids), they should never have equal rights with people gearing mains, unless it's some class or build the raid desperately needs (like a retri pally, atm).

Oath had a dedicated loot council, it wasn't blunt, balancing all of the things - raid attendance, what the class needs, what's benefit with current gear, time spent trying to attain the item, remembering what items the person got recently, raid performance, etc. - was hard work, it took up to 10minutes to decide on a single item. If it was a close-call, it was just given by rolls anyway. And despite all the effort it STILL wasn't perfect and led to drama.

Just stick to rolls, imho, it's not worth it.

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RE: About raid loot...

Post  Scythe on Fri Aug 13, 2010 7:17 pm

Oath roll system was'nt exactly fail healers and tanks got the Tier gear b4 any DPS, only once all the Healers and Tanks had the Tier item could a DPS get the Tier token

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Re: About raid loot...

Post  Guest on Sat Aug 14, 2010 12:37 am

In GoF we use a point system similar to DKP from what I understand, points gained and usable only in 25-mans.

1 point for a t4 raid boss
2 points for a t5
3 points for a t6

You can declare points before rolling and they will add to your roll, the highest roller wins. If someone with points won, they lose 50% of their points or however many they needed to win, whichever makes them lose more points.

I'm not saying you should implement GoF's, but rewarding dedication over need/luck is a good thing to do imo.

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Re: About raid loot...

Post  Scythe on Sat Aug 14, 2010 12:38 am

Manos has a point here i like the idea of a points system

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Re: About raid loot...

Post  Ricky on Sat Aug 14, 2010 2:48 am

Well i always liked a loot system for the guild.Chi wanted us to use DKP but she said it was too complicated...etc...
And we always raid with members of other guilds...isn't DKP souposed to be used only for Guild members?

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Re: About raid loot...

Post  Guest on Sat Aug 14, 2010 3:31 am

Ricky wrote:Well i always liked a loot system for the guild.Chi wanted us to use DKP but she said it was too complicated...etc...
And we always raid with members of other guilds...isn't DKP souposed to be used only for Guild members?

Well, it isn't that complicated. I just explained our system, leaving out alts...

Alts get to use 50% of your roll points. That means if you win, you lose a maximum of 50% of your total and a minimum of 25%.

And GoF has a point database with a list of names (other guilds, too) and their points.

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Re: About raid loot...

Post  Vend on Sat Aug 14, 2010 10:05 am

There's always going to be a problem with any loot system used. That's just how it is.
I'm with everyone when they say its unfair to reward someone that doesn't deserve it, yet giving an item to someone so they can gain a small upgrade, isn't what i like to see either.

The rolling system can work well if we have something like a loot council checking the gear of those who rolled for the item. Of course that won't always work (eg. Manslayer changing his gear before looting) but it does maximise the chance for everyone to be happy with whoever got the item.

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Re: About raid loot...

Post  pachinco on Sat Aug 14, 2010 12:38 pm

guys we must start using our heads.the ppl that roll for an item normally is truthfull to what they need.i myself only greed or need what i must.

getting ppl to say "i rolled highest and giving loot to him and he does not need it "screw that.guildies is coming 1st but if HR or any1 else wins roll we do what is right.hye gets thye loot.next time he maybe does not want to rjoin raid because we acted like oath
i am not like oath sorry

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Re: About raid loot...

Post  Vend on Sun Aug 15, 2010 2:30 am

Sorry pach but i think you've misunderstood oath's loot system. Firstly, i want to say it was a damn fair system. The only thing that people got annoyed about was the officers getting their loot first.

Now what we're saying when we say that we should have something like oath's system is that having people double checking someone's gear to make sure they've made a correct decision.

I also think you've given too many people credit when you say people know what they need to roll for. Truth is, some don't, which is where the problems occur. I can agree with you on saying that having a roll system gets people saying "ill get it next time" etc etc, but it gets brought back to the reason why this topic started. We bring people that make no effort of gearing up and get carried through winning items that other, more geared and devoted players should be getting.

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Re: About raid loot...

Post  Shaerty on Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:02 am

Well last night in SSC, at Kara, the t5 legs dropped for mages and both Nagoth and Darkmatter rolled on them.
I was whispered before kara, by manos and dark himself because i gave t5 gloves to Nagoth, not considering he hadn't really
been gearing or something like that (He does ask if he can come, not implying he should get an invitation anyway, which i like btw)

Anyway Nagoth outrolled Dark and i told nagoth that i was going to give it to darkmatter. He said it was ok and that he understood.
Well in this situation it was easier than others. New player vs more experience player. But with Vashj it became a little difficult.

The gear that dropped was rolled on, by experienced players only. So then i decided to let those with the highest roll win.
Then Cyc QQ'ed that he had highest dps and so and that he should get at least one t5 token. Now this is the thing i want your opinion on.

Does Damage done and dps have anything to do with getting drops? Because frankly i don't think so. There are several things that might cause someone's dps to be low on a boss fight, just on the top of my list, lag for example. Should we calculate damage done and dps into it?

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Re: About raid loot...

Post  Deadroe on Sun Aug 15, 2010 1:05 pm

That's a problem.
If you don't value performance at all... How will you motivate people to do better?
But valueing only by performance isn't good either.

Let's just agree on a SIMPLE mathematical formula for determining, who should get any piece of loot. My Proposal is the following:


Final roll = ("/roll" + performance - deaths + bosses - missed_raids - PNATIIAU + upgrade*(1 - loot_value)) * role_coef


performance:: % of damage done (for dps) OR % of healing done /2 (for healers) OR (% of threat generated + % of damage taken + % damage mitigation(including avoidance) ) /3 (for tanks)
deaths: number of personal deaths overall (dps) OR average deaths per person (healer, tank and dps with Vanish, Feign Death, etc)
bosses: 25-man raid bosses downed with the person in raid since the last time any item was won by the person; doesn't count in ZA or Kara
missed_raids: number of missed 25-man raids since the last attended 25-man raid
role_coef: 1.2 if tank (includes stuff like warlocks tanking on Leo fight, they get tank coef on dps loot), 1.1 if healer, 1.0 if dps
PNATIIU: "People Not Aggreeing That It Is an Upgrade" - number of "People Not Aggreeing That It Is an Upgrade" to the person rolling
upgrade: ilvl of item being rolled on / ilvl of item to be replaced (pvp items get ilvl*0.7)
loot_value: ilvl of the item / max ilvl (pve) (pvp items get ilvl*0.7)

If anyone has suggestions how to improve it, or how to actually use it, please voice them.


Last edited by Deadroe on Sun Aug 15, 2010 3:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: About raid loot...

Post  Shaerty on Sun Aug 15, 2010 1:21 pm

Ofcourse i value performance, but it's so hard to calculate it in the final roll, and btw your little formula isn't helping :p

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Re: About raid loot...

Post  Guest on Sun Aug 15, 2010 5:22 pm

If performance were valued so much, I'd never get better gear because, without tier items, I'm gonna oom. It's just unavoidable.

But what shae was saying earlier about t5 gloves going to nagoth... t5 mage is more of a boost to those who already have some pieces (setboni, stats, etc scale more). So Dark or myself would probably have benefitted more from them.

In any case, it bothers me when someone at the bottom of the list (because of spec, gear, and rotation from what I can tell) gets the item. Personally, I see that people like that will not get far even with gear upgrades...

It's a hard decision, but I think a loot council would be a really good thing. Officers are the ones who put the raid together and make it work; they should be the ones deciding who gets what and why, IMO.

I could go on and on, but I think I'll leave it at that. Very Happy

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Re: About raid loot...

Post  Shaerty on Mon Aug 16, 2010 10:48 am

Well that officer loot council does sound like a good idea, but we'd have to implement it first.
I'll be sure to discuss this with the other officers.

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Re: About raid loot...

Post  Deadroe on Mon Aug 16, 2010 12:11 pm

You kind of need knowledgeable class leaders who know everything about their class (and its loot, available alternatives, etc.) for a loot council to work.

It wouldn't be good if loot council made uninformed decisions, just because none of the officers knew much about a given class/build.

Over all, it requires tons more organisational effort, need to seriously think if we can pull it off. If done poorly it can lead to some unprecedented drama.

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Re: About raid loot...

Post  Nagoth on Mon Aug 16, 2010 6:02 pm

Manos wrote:
But what shae was saying earlier about t5 gloves going to nagoth... t5 mage is more of a boost to those who already have some pieces (setboni, stats, etc scale more). So Dark or myself would probably have benefitted more from them.

In any case, it bothers me when someone at the bottom of the list (because of spec, gear, and rotation from what I can tell) gets the item. Personally, I see that people like that will not get far even with gear upgrades...

I do see where your coming with this as set bonus are useful (and i would of been happy to give the gloves up if you gave a valid reason at the time such as set bonus) but how are lower geared people going to get better if people say it would be better for the well geared guy to have the items?

Performance is also a good way to judge who gets what, but if people who aren't performaning well due to lack of gear will get nothing? does seem abit harsh

i do feel a team of master loots would be good one for each class and say for example a mage items drops they should look and decide who gets or if they are unsure it could be rolled over.



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Re: About raid loot...

Post  Guest on Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:51 am

Yes, I'm not saying I don't wanna gear new players, but I think you guys should do a few karas/Gruuls to get some gear.

And I'm more than happy to help you spec Razz

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Re: About raid loot...

Post  Shaerty on Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:55 am

@ Nagoth: Like Manos said, we don't want to keep gear from new and lower geared ppl, but it's just a bit unfair to those ppl that have been doing karazhan, gruuls and heroics to get some boj gear or t4. That's why Karazhan needs to happen and so does gruul. Even Magtheridon should be done weekly, but it's a harder strategy than gruul or kara, so ppl don't want to go because they think they will wipe...

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Re: About raid loot...

Post  Deadroe on Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:21 am

Those who complaint about valuing performance are usually those who are lazy to do heroics and are looking for an easy way to fast-forward their equipement progress. You can get to a competitive 1k raid-buffed dps on boj and kara gear alone (more than half dps don't reach that yet, why?), It is NOT an excuse. And it is NOT fair to give you T5/T6 over those of us who have spent months running heroics.

Do your heroic homework.

Instead of rotting your brain in bgs.

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Re: About raid loot...

Post  Vend on Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:39 pm

Deadroe wrote:Those who complaint about valuing performance are usually those who are lazy to do heroics and are looking for an easy way to fast-forward their equipement progress. You can get to a competitive 1k raid-buffed dps on boj and kara gear alone (more than half dps don't reach that yet, why?), It is NOT an excuse. And it is NOT fair to give you T5/T6 over those of us who have spent months running heroics.

Do your heroic homework.

Instead of rotting your brain in bgs.

This ^^
Believe this has been said many times. Anyway, i see where you're coming from nogath but....

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Re: About raid loot...

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